Ashley :
This is Real Estate rookie episode 430. My name is Ashley Care. What would happen if your investment property burned down? Welcome to the Real Estate Rookie podcast where every week, three times a week, we bring you the inspiration, motivation, and stories you need to kickstart your investing journey in real estate. Sometimes you have to turn a worst case scenario into a best case scenario, even if you did everything right. Our guest had to do just that. In March of this year, he lost his first rookie deal in a fire. We are bringing him on the show to discuss what is the insurance process like for dealing with a fire? Does it make sense to keep the property or to sell the house? And why it’s always important to read the fine print. So Aaron Salade, welcome to the show and we are bringing Erin here as BiggerPockets very own CFO. So Erin, welcome to the show.

Aaron :
Thank you Ashley. It’s a pleasure to be here.

Ashley :
So let’s start off with how you acquired this property and when did you acquire it?

Aaron :
Sure. So my first real estate transaction actually acquired it my while I was in college. So my freshman year of college I was also in the National Guard. Nine 11 happened and I was attached to a special forces unit. I was deployed for almost a year to Afghanistan. Upon coming back from deployment, one nice thing about being deployed is you really don’t have expenses. Most of your expenses are covered. So I was able to save up quite a bit. During that deployment, came back and said, well, where should I invest? And real estate seemed like a logical, practical investment to make versus paying rent. So at that point in time, came back, talked to a realtor. At that point in time, I think that was before Zillow even existed. So they would send me emails of listings. I asked for the cheapest property in town because I wanted to be able to pay for it and not actually even have mortgage insurance. So I was looking for a deal that would make sense out at the gate, not from investment purposes where I’d rent it out, but just so that I would live and not pay rent at that point in time. So I acquired that property in 2003 and owned it for 20 plus years.

Ashley :
Well Aaron, first of all, thank you very much for your service. I want to, first of all, you mentioned 2003, and I bet you’re going to tell us the purchase price of this property and everybody’s going to groan. There’s no way you can buy a property even close to that now, and you’ve held it for 20 years. So I’m sure the value definitely changed on that property. But what was your purchase price and kind of give us a little description of what the property was like, bedroom count, square footage, et cetera.

Aaron :
Sure. So as I mentioned, I asked for one of the cheapest properties in town. At that point in time, I paid 125,000 for a two bedroom, 800 square foot property. One bath actually had a nice yard, nice garage, quiet neighborhood. It was a good deal. What was interesting, at that point in time, interest rates had just come down from I think it was like 7% to six point a half percent. So I thought I was getting a great deal at six point a half percent, which is kind of funny because interest rates are now back in at those same rates and individuals thinking they’re not getting a good deal. The deals still worked out well and it did appreciate very nicely since that point in time. Probably the other component that would be surprising is I didn’t use a VA loan, so I looked at using a VA loan, but as I mentioned, I didn’t want to have to pay with VA loans. You have to actually pay a little bit incremental to insure the loan, and it was actually cheaper for me to do a conventional loan and not have mortgage insurance. So I wanted to find a property that I could pay enough for the down payment, did not have mortgage insurance and have a cheaper payment per month as a starving college student at that point in

Ashley :
Time. So now let’s fast forward. What happened with this property in this past March?

Aaron :
So after owning the property and having pretty good rates of success with tenants earlier this year, I had a house fire in March and largely destroyed most of the property, something that I had not dealt with ever before or really knew how to deal with. So I was notified abruptly during the day by the fire department, a call saying, Hey, just want to let you know that your house was destroyed in the fire and here’s the current situation, here are next steps. And I was like, oh, okay. So now I got to figure out what do I do? Because it was largely a passive investment at this point in time. It was fairly easy to manage. Now I actually have to take an active role and figure out what do I need to do from an insurance standpoint, from a restoration standpoint, do I sell? So there’s a lot that went into the decision calculus of where I ended up.

Ashley :
Yeah, so do you even know what happened to cause the fire or why it all of a sudden burned down?

Aaron :
So it was an electrical fire. It started near the tenant’s computer system. So my assumption is something got overloaded. I think he had a pretty sophisticated gaming computer that probably got overheated but unclear what exactly caused it outside of his electrical file. The fire department said it was accidental, which actually was really helpful when we got to the insurance process.

Ashley :
And I’m curious to dive into that because it’s not only your property but also the tenant’s belongings and the property and to how that whole process works out. So what was your reaction when you received this phone call and you’re self-managing this property, correct? That’s right. So what’s the first thought that goes through your head when you get a phone saying the property is burned down. Is it I need to get over there right now? Is it this is who I need to call, or what was kind of that initial reaction?

Aaron :
Well, look, my first reaction is the tenant. Okay. Is he okay? What was the situation? It’s an unfortunate accident situation for me, but it’s devastating for the tenant. That is so true. It’s their entire life. Everything the tenant ever owned. The tenant was somewhat introverted and actually spent a lot of time at the house and he actually had lost two animals or pets to cats in the fire as well. So my first thought was, how’s the tenant doing? What can I do to help the tenant? In the back of my mind I’m thinking, okay, what are all the other logistics that I have to do as a landlord, but I wanted to make sure the tenant was okay

Ashley :
First and then let’s go into that logistically and I guess legally, what are you actually responsible for when the tenant has no place to live? Is it now your responsibility to put them up into housing? Does it depend what your lease agreement says? What was kind of your first step to help the tenant and whether you were actually obligated to or not?

Aaron :
So I’m not a lawyer, so as far as legal obligations, I didn’t probably check that box. That being said, in my lease, I do mandate that they have renter insurance and my tenant did have renter’s insurance. So he had reached out and that was when I was able to connect with the renter. He had reached out to his renter insurance company. They had actually wired him funds immediately to be able to cover the cost of a hotel or an outside residence. So that actually, that process worked out pretty well. But again, it’s going to be dependent upon that tenant’s renter insurance policy as we move forward in the next few weeks. I was proactive in getting the tenant his security deposit back as quickly as possible, and that was even really before I knew if it was accidental. The fire company doesn’t tell you it takes about a week or so until they perform the report incident report and finalize it.
But at that point I wanted to make sure to your point, that the tenant was okay, I at least had shelter and had a place to reside. So as far as my legal responsibility, I probably didn’t perfectly check that box, but just from a situation of goodwill, I wanted to make sure that they had shelter and then that they were working with their renter’s insurance policy and I could provide the security deposit back because I think they only had their wallet. So all of their other paperwork, computers, everything kind of was lost in that fire.

Ashley :
And I think also too, you were very fortunate that you had a responsible tenant in place that had renter’s insurance and they also contacted their insurance company and started moving the process for themselves that they were already receiving money on their end to pay for a hotel where it didn’t really fall into your lap where the tenant is like, you need to provide this for me, you need to do this for me too. So I think that’s where you really didn’t have to look into legally what was your obligation on that end. But I do want to hear more about the process of dealing with the fire and the process, what to do with your property. So rookies know exactly what to expect if this actually happens to them. But first, let’s take a short break and hear from our sponsors and we are back and thank you guys so much for taking the time to check out our show sponsors. They make the show happen just like you guys. So what was the process of actually working with the fire department? You made sure the tenant was okay, they have a place to stay. What’s next with as far as the fire investigation?

Aaron :
So as far as the fire investigation, the fire chief called me that the night of the fire said they would be performing an investigation. The initial responders that were at the fire put together an initial incident report and then an investigator comes out and that takes, at least for where my property was located, it took about another week for them to perform the final investigation, which indicated the cause and was it accidental or not? So the initial report, so you get an initial report, but that report doesn’t always have is not complete until the investigator signs off. Once the investigator signs off, then you can send it to your insurance company. So that was one of the things that I learned is, oh, I thought the report was complete, but it wasn’t complete because they didn’t have the cause completely identified and is it accidental or not?
Another kind of situation I was fortunate about was they did have a cause and indicated that was accidental from my understanding that it’s not always the case. So in certain situations, if you have a fire, if the fire company can’t identify the cause or identify it as accidental, then the insurance company has to hire a private investigator to determine if it’s accidental or the cause before you can start any of the process for restoration and moving forward with the sale, which could take months from my understanding. So I was really fortunate that the fire company was able to identify that or else it could have really extended the process and made it much harder.

Ashley :
So you’re in contact with the insurance company, they’re waiting for that report to say that it was accidental. Then what’s the next step with them? Are they sending out someone to assess the situation? Do you have to get more information to them?

Aaron :
Yeah, my insurance committee is pretty good. They’re super responsive through email. They were really responsive through email, but they send a claims adjuster out or the claims adjuster reached out to me the next day, I think was on site within two days, two, three days to just take some initial pictures and assess the initial damage. And then had come back several times after that to go through and put together essentially a quote of what they determined the damage would be in tandem. There were also numerous restoration companies reaching out to me who wanted the job. So one of the probably biggest lessons learned for me is they’re kind of fire chasers and not ambulance chasers, but fire chasers where these restoration companies and are inundating with calls. I had well over call plus restoration companies reaching out to me. They wanted this job and it’s kind of a tough time.
There’s so much going on and then it’s like, okay, do you work with them? What’s the process? My insurance company actually kind of helped guide me through that process of here’s what they’re going to want, here’s how to work with them, here’s how I’m going to work with them. Because the restoration company can provide several quotes as well so that you can kind of calibrate is the insurance company providing you a fair estimate on the overall quote, the restoration side, they typically start with a quote for mitigation of the fire, and then some of them are more cagey about, well, here’s how much it’ll cost after the restoration. They want to get the job to restore the property, which is essentially to mitigate the carcinogens and get the property to a point where you can then rebuild. So it’s not as simple as rebuilding the property, it’s you got to mitigate the damages first, then rebuild, and that mitigation component is what they really wanted and then they kind of work kg about how much it’ll cost. In addition to that, it took some time to navigate through that process and figure out what is the total cost going to be if I mitigate and rebuild versus go through a sale as is and take the insurance money.

Ashley :
What was that timeframe of the day that the property burned until you actually have a restoration company starting work on that property?

Aaron :
So the restoration companies may have reached out to me before the insurance company. So I had reached out to the insurance company that night. I had restoration companies calling me the next day. I had restoration companies calling me the first couple of weeks it was, they get signals. I don’t know if they’re listening to the fire scanners or I don’t know, but I got inundated with calls. I kind of narrowed it down to three or four options with restoration companies and then asked for quotes and went through that process with each one as the insurance company was determining how much or as they were assessing damages. So it was kind of parallel path during the same timeframe. That entire process or the process until I actually got a check from the insurance company was probably about a month. And then with the insurance company, at least with my insurance, I think different policies work differently, but with mine, once they assess the damages and you approve their claim, then they just send you a check and that check is endorsed to you and the mortgage company takes their funds out first and then you get whatever’s remaining and then from there it’s up to you, do you want to rebuild?
It was kind of up to me. I kind of had the funds available to move forward with the restoration company or to keep then sell as is or to rebuild myself if I wanted to take that job on.

Ashley :
So with that process, you are working with the insurance company, you’ve got the restoration companies in place, deciding which ones you’re going to use if looking back at that month period before you get that chalk, is there anything you would’ve done differently to maybe expedite the process or to maybe navigate it a different way?

Aaron :
Yeah, that’s a really good question. I wish I knew about the restoration process before going into it. That was something that I was trying to figure out because they weren’t giving me the full cost to rebuild and I was trying to push towards that during this timeframe, and most of them were not giving me, we’ll give you the cost of mitigation, then we’ll work on the cost to rebuild later. How do I kind of make a decision if you’re going to do that? So that was probably the biggest component that I just wish I knew going in as far as doing something differently. I think one other component that I might’ve done a little bit differently is post process or once I’ve started getting bids, I then also reached out to companies online that would buy the property as is, and I probably would’ve created a little bit more of a competitive process in having them bid for the property.
So I had a few come in with quotes and was able to negotiate a little bit, but I probably, I could have done a better job at making them compete and you’re kind of doing it yourself. These companies are coming and you essentially send them the insurance assessment and pictures and they’ll give you a bid. It’s likely wholesalers that want to come in and buy the property and then rebuild it. But I think I could have made a more competitive process, but I wanted to get an assessment and keep the ball moving forward to make that decision of like, am I going to sell it or am I going to rebuild

Ashley :
It? When you were going through the estimate that was just for the restoration, did you realize it at first it was just for restoration or was this something you kind of found out later and was it very clear cut to you?

Aaron :
It definitely was not clear cut. That was the component was like, what exactly does this mean? And they kind of were standoffish on even the restoration components. What does that mean? What do I get with that? And then well, I got to rebuild it after that. What is that going to cost? It definitely wasn’t clear, and I would say I had better success with some of the local restoration companies than I did with some of the larger brands, some of the larger brands with sales teams that are calling you. They were more cagey about the price and how the process works than some of the local restoration companies. I call the local restoration companies actually were a little bit easier to work with now. That just might’ve been my specific situation. So

Ashley :
Would you say it’s really important to read the fine print and to do your research as you’re doing this process?

Aaron :
Absolutely, absolutely. I could easily see people coming in and like, oh, this restoration company is going to come and restore it. They’ll work with the insurance company and some of ’em get probably a lot of pressure, sign this contract, what are you going to do with it? So I would definitely advise not signing anything, understand exactly what’s going to happen and make sure you really understand the process before getting into it. Before you sign any contract with the restoration company, you really need to know what your options are first.

Ashley :
It has to be hard not to jump into it as to like, oh my God, this is devastating. I want to move as quickly as possible to fix this property, get it back into generating income or whatever you decide to do with it. So I want to stress how you’re saying that it’s so important to take your time and to understand the process instead of just jumping into it. I’ve done that myself on many different things where I just like, I want to get this done, I want to get it over with. Yes, let’s do it. Let’s go. And then you realize down the road, yeah, this isn’t exactly what I wanted. So, so important to read that fine print and to do your research even if it is going to take a little bit of time. So now that you have the insurance check, what did you decide to do and what was kind of your path from there?

Aaron :
Yeah, so at that point in time it was the decision calculus of do I restore the property and sell or do I take the insurance proceeds and sell as is or do I restore the property and hold? I wanted to evaluate kind of apples, apples if I sold in both scenarios to kind of look at it on a level playing field. So had to really understand what’s the overall cost to rebuild it and what would be the overall cost to sell it. I actually reached out to Mindy because she works in that area to get valuation for the property or just high level. So I think in and around three 50 would’ve been what I would’ve been able to sell it for between the insurance proceeds and what I would’ve been able to sell it for as is. I got about 2 85, but when you kind of discount, if I sold it, then I’d have to take out broker’s fees. There might be other costs. So you’re kind of at three 30 versus 2 85. So it’s about a 40 5K delta between sell be done or try to rebuild and sell later and maybe hold, well then there’s this also, there’s eight to 10 months and there’s an opportunity cost of my time to rebuild it. How much will the project have cost overruns that 40 5K could get eaten up really quick. And I was like, I’ve owned the property 20 years and honestly the property has cash flowed every year since I’ve owned it.

Ashley :
It’s had a good run.

Aaron :
It’s had a good run, and I was kind of like it’s had a good run. I might’ve lost something from an economic standpoint because I ended up selling as is and then taking the insurance proceeds, but I had a good cash flowing asset for a long period of time and the opportunity costs of my time plus the risk that maybe that 45 KI would have costs over runs on the restoration process, which they’re all a little koji on the actual costs

Ashley :
And the headache of managing a project in general.

Aaron :
Yeah, that’s it. And I don’t cover the contracting side, so if I was more handy in doing more of it myself or wanted to do that, that might’ve been the better option. But for me where I’m at, it made more sense to just take the proceeds and then determine what’s next.

Ashley :
Yeah. And you mentioned Mindy, reach out to a resource that you have available. Mindy Jensen is the co-host of the Money podcast. She’s also an agent, and I think that was a great tip that you reach out to somebody who is knowledgeable in that market that can give you a sound piece of advice or data as to here’s a way to help you make your decision so you can go to biggerpockets.com/agent to find an agent to help you through this process if you need to make that decision of what can I actually sell this property for as is or after I restore it too. So that I think was a great piece of advice is to rely on your team members and your resources too.

Aaron :
And that being said, I actually used quite a few BiggerPockets resources when this initially happened. I got in the forums and I asked a bunch of questions and I was like, Hey, what do I do? What are my options here? So I got some really good responses from the forums. What are the tax implications, which I think we’ll get into, but the cost basis with how does that work when you sell as is plus have insurance proceeds to depreciate it because asked for a long period of time. So there’s a depreciation recapture, that was a pretty big number. Does that work with the sale as is or do you have to incorporate the insurance proceeds? So it was getting to a level of tax that I was like, this is a little bit above my level of knowledge on the finance side. So I actually used our financial services finder as well and found a great tax professional that works in real estate. So yeah, I’ve definitely leveraged BiggerPockets resources in this and it’s been super valuable.

Ashley :
And the link for that too is biggerpockets.com/tax if anyone else needs to ask some tax questions for maybe a situation they’re in or looking for a new accountant, PA or bookkeeper too. So next I’d like to discuss how you evaluated the sale process, pros and cons and what resources you use to make the right decision. But first, let’s take a short break and we’ll be right back. Okay. So you mentioned a little bit to us of the pros and cons of doing the sales process. You reached out to your resources and things like that. What about going any other route? Did you look at doing maybe a 10 31 exchange talking to a wholesaler, things like that? What are some other that were available to you selling the property?

Aaron :
So I’m still evaluating the 10 31 exchange, but it works a little bit different. One of the things I learned with this situation is it’s actually a 10 33 exchange because it’s an involuntary conversion of your property. Interesting. So at 10 31 exchange, you have a limited timeframe where you have to buy a kin asset and you have to have a qualified intermediary with a 10 33, you don’t need a qualified intermediary, and you have up to two years after filing from a tax standpoint. So you have a very long timeframe to be able to or reinvest in a different asset like kind asset. What

Ashley :
Actually qualifies for this? So your property burned down, is that one of them? And what are some of the other qualifications?

Aaron :
I haven’t dug into other scenarios that would happen, but yeah, essentially anything. I think one of the other scenarios is if the government were to take your property, whereas this an involuntary conversion from that standpoint due to

Ashley :
They’re building a highway or something, you have to sell to them or something.

Aaron :
And I think that was the catalyst for the tax rule initially was eminent domain and being able to take the property. But if you have a situation like this, from my understanding, and again, I haven’t filed taxes for this year, but from my understanding talking to tax professionals is I can submit a 10 33, which is an involuntary conversion of the residents, which is really nice because I will likely reinvest these proceeds into a kind asset so I don’t have to pay the tax on these proceeds. And that’s something that I’m kind of evaluating, but I can passively evaluate and write for the right opportunity versus in the 10 31 side, you’re kind of locked down to making a decision quicker and then you may not get in the right asset to parlay that into.

Ashley :
Okay, awesome. What about any other routes when looking into selling? Did you kind of go into, was wholesalers maybe one?

Aaron :
Well, so I sold the property as is, and I think essentially a wholesaler did buy it. They didn’t specifically say they were wholesaler, but they either were buying it to restore it themselves or they sold it to a wholesaler. I thought they actually offered a really fair value. That process was actually much easier than I was expecting. So maybe just to walk through that process, I was kind of surprised. So I reached out to a few companies online that said that they would give me an offer essentially with just pictures and the information from insurance, and then there’s a three to four week due diligence period. So I had a couple of different quotes come in. The company I ended up going with, they actually closed in two weeks. So from the time I signed the initial agreement to the time we closed, it was a two week process.
There’s no closing costs, so there’s no realtor fee. There’s a title company fee, which they covered. So from that standpoint, it was like there’s no cost. I get that check and that’s an immediate cash in my pocket. So it was actually a pretty smooth process. It was kind of expecting where’s the gotcha. Even when they sent over the initial purchase agreement, it was like I had a good friend of mine who’s an attorney, kind of look over it, but it’s not your typical purchase agreement that’s written by a realtor. It’s a wholesale purchase agreement. Like is this going to hold up in court? I don’t know. But then at the end of the day, I’m like, what’s the risk on my side? They’re paying me for the property.

Ashley :
If they don’t close, then you go into somebody else.

Aaron :
So I was like, is lower risk, so let’s move forward. And it did. It worked out really, really well.

Ashley :
So what was that timeframe of the house burning to actually closing and selling the property? How long was that?

Aaron :
It was about 45 days from start to finish. So I’d say it was from the time the property had that incident to the time I closed and sold the property, it was about 45 days later. It was about 30 days after the incident occurred when I collected the insurance money, so maybe another 15 days to collect the remaining amount. So it was a pretty quick

Ashley :
Process. And then let’s talk about the numbers on this. What did you actually end up selling that property to the wholesaler for?

Aaron :
So you sold it for one 16

Ashley :
And you had originally bought it for 1 25.

Aaron :
It’s comical, right? Yeah.

Ashley :
And then what did you keep from the insurance check after the mortgage was paid off?

Aaron :
Yeah, so I had done a cash out refinance on the property. So from the mortgage I kept maybe 20, 30 k From that, I done the cash out refinance to purchase other things.

Ashley :
Okay. So have you actually sat down and worked out the numbers of if this property was alive and well and you sold it today, would you have made a lot more money on that property than if it would’ve burned in how you had to sell it?

Aaron :
If I didn’t have this incident, again, I think the calculus about 45,000 without the time cash outlay. So let’s say this incident didn’t happen, I could have sold it for three 50 ish less brokers fees about three 30. So I think between the two options is about $45,000 difference. But the time and potential costs,

Ashley :
Well, especially the time to rebuild and to do the restoration, that too. Yeah,

Aaron :
Exactly.

Ashley :
To deal with. Yeah. Yeah. Well, as much as this was an awful situation, and especially for your tenant, the last thing I want to touch on is the insurance. So has that affected, or do you even know that if you would’ve held onto the property kept it as your rental, would this have increased your premium on that property?

Aaron :
Possibly, yeah, possibly. I don’t know. I didn’t hold the property to find out. Insurance is based on actuary math and they’re going to use that to adjust your premiums over time. I can tell you from other properties that I’ve owned, insurance rates are going up and I have another short term residence that’s in the mountains and there’s a lot of wildfire danger, and the insurance premiums have doubled. So yeah, I would’ve expected it if it didn’t go up immediately. It’s going to go up over time, and if you have, the more claims you have, the more it’s going to go up.

Ashley :
Claims are just going to increase it more, I would think. Yeah, so that’s just something else to watch out for. And I think probably that your tenant had insurance in place that they didn’t try and come after you to cover their personal belongings to get some kind of money from you to cover their hotel expenses and things like that. And it’s just that extra layer of protection for yourself that you don’t have to deal with your tenant now coming after you, whether it’s they’re right to, or they have a claim to do that it’s still going to be a headache against you of, first of all, feeling bad. This tenant has nothing. Now, as a moral person, I want to do the right thing. Should I go ahead and fork out the money for them to do that? Should I submit the claim for them to have their expenses covered? Things like that. So it is so important to stress, I think, from this example, how much easier this process was for you because the tenant had that insurance policy in place and just took away a couple little headaches that could have been added onto your plate because they had their insurance in place.

Aaron :
That’s right. And actually to add some additional, I do have an umbrella policy, so that provides an extra layer of coverage. If there was some litigation that came out of this, I definitely advise having an umbrella policy in case something like that happens. So I guess that’s one piece of insurance that we didn’t touch on. That is good to

Ashley :
Have. It’s important to have. Yeah. Okay. Well, thank you so much for finding us and coming onto the podcast today and doing just a great job of breaking down what happened during this situation and giving so many actionable items for people to go ahead and if this happens to them, take those steps to understand the process. I think real estate investing can be very, very scary. When I bought my first property, I thought, worst case scenario, the roof is going to fly off. The first day I buy it, the tenant is going to fall down the stairs and sue me. So earring stories like this where you actually took a worst case scenario and made the best of it, and here’s how someone else can go through that process too. So thank you so much for taking the time to share this with us.

Aaron :
Sure, absolutely. Yeah, it’s been my pleasure. Thanks, Ashley.

Ashley :
Yeah, and so you can find Aaron on biggerpockets.com. You can reach out to him to find out more information about this property or maybe the other deals he has going on. We’ll also link his information into the show notes. Make sure you check out the Real Estate Rookie Facebook group. And if you haven’t already, make sure you subscribe to our YouTube channel. I’m Ashley, and thanks so much for listening to this episode of Real Estate Rookie.

Speaker 3:
This BiggerPockets podcast is produced by Daniel Zarate, edited by Exodus Media Copywriting by Calico content.

Ashley :
I’m Ashley. He’s Tony, and you have been listening to Real Estate Rookie.

Speaker 3:
And if you want to be a guest on a BiggerPockets show, apply at biggerpockets.com/guest.